How to Type Others...

topic posted Mon, April 25, 2005 - 4:23 PM by  Duardon
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The key to typing individuals is the same premise as GPS; by using triangulation you can always nail someones type. The goal is to type them as 3 possible numbers (either through extensive questioning or through general observation over time), and I assure you those 3 distinct types will be connected (through integration/disintegration), so for instance, a 1 will act as an unhealthy 4 at times, and as a healthy 7 at others, and since 1 is the only number connected to both those numbers, you have nailed that person's type. The 3.6.9 triad can prove more difficult, but the premise of healthy(integration) and unhealthy(disintegration) makes it fairly easy to discern the difference.

-Duardon
posted by:
Duardon
California
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  • Re: How to Type Others...

    Tue, April 26, 2005 - 2:13 PM
    even still that can prove to be difficult as in certain situations 2 and 7 look alike. as do 2 and 9. a 4w3 could look like 5w6 if that 5 is being social. while the ideal situation would be observational and based on prominent fixations (outside of simple riso/hudson book identification) if youve narrowed it down to even 3 types and those types form a triad, theres still a high potential for that to be wrong. i feel like in strictly observational circumstances, if you dont know (ie youre considering more than one type) then you dont know.
    • Re: How to Type Others...

      Wed, April 27, 2005 - 11:57 AM
      I think Dick Wright sheds some light on what you're talking about. True, numbers like 2 & 7 are difficult to type, but his book talks about what he calls the "clockwork walk" that numners do n relation to the base triads, and he actually repositions the triads so that 8.9.1 are the feelers, and 2.3.4 are the actors. Essentially this concept makes it really easy to type people based on the order in which they process reality, (for instance, head types 5.6.7 typically Think, then Feel, then Act, which creates their issues, and 8.9.1. Feel first, then Act, then Think, which creates their issues, and 2.3.4 typically Act (the term encompasses actually moving or doing something as well as putting up a fascade or image) then Think, then Feel. There is more depth to it than i'm crediting it, but essentially to rebutt your post if I met a 2 I wouldn't think for a second that they were a seven because of what Dick Wright's book has shed on my understanding in addition to my use of triangulation of the triads, which brings me to why i feel your response was still unclear; How is there still a "high potential" for your typing to be wrong if I ascertain that someone is one of three numbers, and those numbers are in an integration/disintegration triad? There simply is only 1 number that can share a connection to the other 2? (excepting 3.6.9 which as I stated is easy if you know that disintegration must occur in one connection, and integration in another) The only room for error is in determining what 3 numbers a person resembles, which is entirely possible, but even the rheti test is surprisingly accurate in doing that, so I fail to see how someone with experience in the Enneagram couldn't use the GPS theory (paired with Wright's concept of reality processing based on triad) to quickly determine someones type. Check out Dick Wright's book, it will redefine your perspective of the Enneagram.

      As for your examples:

      2 connects to 4, as does 1 & (wings 3 and 5)

      7 connects to 5, as does 8 & (wings 4 and 6)

      If you are saying that it's possible to mistake the two (using my theory) here's why it isn't:

      assuming both core types (5 & 4) are being observed as social, here's how you easily discern the difference.

      The 4 is going to act, then think, then feel, and the 5 is going to think, feel, and then act. Even if the 5 and 4 are both in disintegration, the 5 is still a head type when they are disintegrating to 7, and the 4 is still an acting type (or by Riso/Hudson standards still an insitinctive type) when they move to 2, and if integrating, the 5 becomes an 8, and the 4 and 1 (the difference between 8 and 1 is obvious (8 external acceptance of anger, 1 internal denial of anger since they both are the ends of the anger triad spectrum) so if you have determined any of those connections between the type in question, and you see the order they do it in (this will be really easy because thinking and acting are opposite each other) there isn't even an intersection at which these 2 numbers could meet (at any point in their respective enneagramatic movements) to confuse you.

      -Duardon


      "The Enneagram Triads - A Key To Personal And Professional Growth" (1997), Dick Wright
      • Re: How to Type Others...

        Wed, April 27, 2005 - 9:28 PM
        I'll definitely check out the book. I have some concerns with validity of your (Think. Act. Feel) structure, as well as how you are able to discern the order in which someone you are observing is processing information, noting the difficulty of certain types to discern it even for themselves (how does a type who has limited thinking or feeling abilities differentiate between the two) but again, I haven't read Wright and while it seems like an interesting theory the reasoning for the repositioning of the types is? I would have to read up on the reasoning for this.

        In that you move from that point to the next, I'm slightly confused as to what your saying:

        "How is there still a "high potential" for your typing to be wrong if I ascertain that someone is one of three numbers, and those numbers are in an integration/disintegration triad? There simply is only 1 number that can share a connection to the other 2? (excepting 3.6.9 which as I stated is easy if you know that disintegration must occur in one connection, and integration in another) The only room for error is in determining what 3 numbers a person resembles, which is entirely possible..."

        Because of the variation in situations you cannot depend on the lines of integration/disintegration and you are left with the core fixations fears and desires of the type.

        I suppose its just my experience that I cannot imagine which 3 types resemble one another enough (except maybe 2 7 & 9--this is obviously not using your theory) for there to be confusion.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: How to Type Others...

          Mon, May 2, 2005 - 12:07 PM
          Here are some words to describe how Mind, Heart, Body are, within 3 phases.
          During each phase, one center will be leading, one following and one reconciling ...
          One can use these descriptions to place oneself in each phase and get the sense of how it is ... then also recognize that in others perhaps

          Body leading, mind following, heart reconciling
          Mind is Not Knowing; Heart is Not Resisting; Body is Expressing, Not Holding Back

          Heart leading, body following, mind reconciling
          Mind is Understanding; Heart is Feeling; Body is Resting

          Mind leading, heart following, body reconciling
          Mind is Penetrating; Heart is Opening; Body is Intuiting
          • ...then again im a 5

            Mon, May 2, 2005 - 6:25 PM
            the only reason why i dont buy this is because its so vague, situational and subjective. once the enneagram becomes open to interpretation it becomes no better than astrology. i completely understand the different processes of experience, and i understand what youre trying to say here. but it really isnt coming across as clearly as it should. this interpretation unnecessarily anthropomorphizes processes where they could be made more clear. im unsure as to whether this is your theory or someones i have yet to read. answer?
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: ...then again im a 5

              Mon, May 2, 2005 - 6:40 PM
              It seems to me that all experience that we can talk about is at least partly subjective, and that what the enneagram is inviting us to transform is indeed our own subjective experience ... to make it more objective in the sense of us becoming more real and honest, living more in truth

              You can also use the enneagram to map 'objective' experiences, like the way a process unfolds, a building gets built for example, the phases of any process, etc.
              But really it's about inner experience. To make it work, presumes the user will be involved with an inner entuning process, at the heart of their own journey.

              Now I agree with you that if you're going to type other people and proclaim what they are, then it's legitimate to expect the criteria should be stable, repeatable, precise, to some degree verifiable. But the verifying may have to be done through legitimate, honest, subjective personal or interpersonal inquiry, rather than say scientific measurements of body parts or puzzle-solving exams or something.

              Anyhow, the description in the previous post are just some words that came up for me while going into this topic a while back, that I found easy to read and follow as instructions for personal sensing in.

              I use the enneagram points slightly differently than other methods I've seen, and don't like the tendency to box people into one point. But understanding the different modes that people can be in, the different styles of insight, reaction, inspiration, shut down, etc, is useful. For example, we can use the map as a way to stretch our own possibilities.
              • Re: ...then again im a 5

                Tue, May 3, 2005 - 12:40 PM
                right, understanding the enneagram is certainly through subjective terms. however what you were presenting was presumably an objective layout of how to understand your subjective experience in objective terms. however, while it was easy to read and understand on paper applying it to your own experience in the way that you propose seems like a challenge. ie how does one recognize when their "heart is not resisting" what does "resisting" mean in this sense and what does it mean for your body to "reconcile". the words are there and they are clear but attempting to gauge this series of processes and understand which is doing what when (in the terms that youve laid out) its too reliant on subjectivity if not semantics for it to be a practical objective framework.
                • Re: ...then again im a 5

                  Tue, May 3, 2005 - 5:06 PM
                  um... this may sound harsh, but I say:
                  DON'T type others. It's like trying to measure somone's height in a funhouse mirror. I mean, we all look out thru our own projections... and what if you just project yr shit... right all over someone else? I see spiritual inisght as being a personal thing... we all have 'oppinions' about 'people' but spiritual insight comes from self knowing.... this judging the 'type' of others via the e. doesn't float my boat at all.

                  and I mean, really, what is the enneagram if it isn't a spiritual tool? is it just a game to put people in boxes?

                  by the way, I'm 4w5... in case I'm projecting my shit all over you guys ;)
                  -cecily
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ...then again im a 5

                    Tue, May 3, 2005 - 9:24 PM
                    so i dont agree with anything youve said and i can go into it if you want but oh my god so funny:

                    we all have 'opinions' about 'people'

                    again, if you want me to go into detail, its totally a game to put people in boxes.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ...then again im a 5

                    Fri, May 6, 2005 - 9:08 PM
                    I like your interpretation. Putting people in boxes seems too confining. Making sense of reality can be confining as well. Matter of fact, you can't even put boxes around spirit or god, due to both being infinite.

                    However, by using simple brain chemistry (not proven yet, but a theory nonoftheless) enneagram can show us the shortest ladder to spiritual awakening, in my opinion.

                    3w2w4.. depending on a day : )

                    Luke
  • Re: How to Type Others...

    Tue, May 3, 2005 - 7:34 PM
    I've been meaning to reply to this thread...

    typing others is a helpful way for one to recognize another person's differences and then observing our own behavior towards them - yes, this can be abused when we try to figure other people out and in one sense blame them for acting their type which is not our own...

    I think one problem with typing others is that depending on our type and center (heart, head, or gut) we can mis-type due to using the wrong system. instead of seeing the enneagram as one static system try seeing it as a dynamic system where one's perception changes how you view it, e.g. 6s feel at home in their fears which is in their center (head) but can also feel comfort when going to the 9 but in a different way b/c their comfort has moved to the gut and is no longer a feeling of fear but a physical feeling of comfort

    sorry, but I have tested others by asking them how they feel in the moment and then observing whether they were in stress or not... all types have certain 'tells' but it's only when you see their 'swings' can you figure what their center is

    and for types which come from one center, it is difficult for them to perceive what the other position is like except from experience... 6s can't move to the 9 in their fears or in their 'head'; it is easier for them to move there in a physical movement b/c that is more 'gutteral' than thinking their way there

    My own example would be that when I disintegrate towards the 5, I stop acting (from the gut) and only respond from the 'head'. or when I try to behave like a 2 from my center, I tend to manipulate the situation and not behave from a 'heart' position, i.e. I can't force it as a typical 8 but learn to let go and act from my heart...

    I assume this will be too subjective for some but hope that it might be useful for others... isn't the enneagram about learning about all the types and seeing how we as individuals can grow?
    • Re: How to Type Others...

      Wed, May 4, 2005 - 9:39 AM
      Precisely, Lobo's 'Swings' are no more than the GPS theory I started this thread with (nothing like full circle), but in actuality, the way to eliminate ambiguity and subjectiveity is through biochemistry. Here's an article by Riso/Hudson titled "The Enneagram & Brain Chemistry", and as far as I'm concerned this is the way in which the Enneagram will attain empirical truth and become accepted pshychology:

      www.enneagraminstitute.com/arti...a.asp

      Essentially all the triads are broken down according to specific types and amounts of Neurotransmitters, specifically Norepinephrine, Dopamine, and Seratonin. They argue that every number has varying degrees of these that place them in their triads, for instance

      8.9.1 has low amounts of Norepinephrine
      2.3.4 has medium amounts
      5.6.7 has high

      the other amounts correspond to the other neurotransmitters and create the two other triads (the Hornuvian and the other triad who's name has escaped me):

      the compliant triad (1.2.6) has medium amounts of Dopamine
      the assertive triad (3.7.8) has high amounts
      the passive triad (4.5.9) has low amounts

      the reactionary triad (4.6.8) has low amounts of Seratonin
      the competancy triad (1.3.5 has medium amounts
      the positive outlook triad (2.7.9) has high amounts

      so every number has certan levels of the three that correspond to their type, and as they integrate/disintegrate, we see their amounts bleeding into another numbers amounts of the same neuro transmitters (which is precisely what integration/disintegration implies) so for instance my number (6) looks like this:

      Dopamine - (medium levels)
      Seratonin - (low levels)
      Norepinephrine - (high levels)

      so a shift to nine (integration) implies i'm altering my biochemistry to look more like a nines (my Seratonin levels go from low to high, my Norepinephrine levels from high to low, etc.) There are online services that will give you a read out of your neurochemical levels for around $150, so if you wanted to test the theory then by all means do so. I think you'll find surprising results.

      Ever wonder why every 1 on the planet that's depressed (going to 4) is prescribed Prozac? Nothing like forced integration to 7 through science. Or even illicit drugs for that matter; the first time I integrated I couldn't relate the feeling to anything else until I tried an amphetamine and discovered the two feelings were nearly identical-that's not just a coincidence. Let me know what you guys think.

      -Duardon
      • Re: How to Type Others...

        Wed, May 4, 2005 - 10:48 AM
        duardon, until I see the controls & the P values that prove statistical significance (p<o.o5) in the study you posted, it is nothing more than heresay to me (and to science)... but if you can procure those I'd be impressed.

        I have been roundly and soundly buffeted by everyone's replies, but it doesn't really change what I think... psyeudoscience is pseudoscience, and if you wrap your self in it you will become attached... not to say that the enneagram is bunk... it is helpful to creat a schema with which to analize the constitution of character...
        but trying to guage the weather by the smell of the wind is a gamble.

        I mean you guys are pretty brainy... but sometimes I feel complelled the thow in my 2 cents when people get so gung-ho with the typing.
        • Max
          Max
          offline 6

          Re: How to Type Others...

          Thu, May 5, 2005 - 9:47 AM
          You will become attached to anything you wrap yourself in, science included. :)
          • Re: How to Type Others...

            Sat, May 7, 2005 - 2:10 PM
            Max,

            I absolutelyagree.

            I trust things that turn out the way they have been predicted to turn out 95% of the time (statistical significance demanded for scientific publlications)... so yeah I guess I wrap myself in science... only because of the painstaking attention to detail with which scientist work. even Jung concurred that archetypes were NOT the true self.. they are merely patterns that we draw upon to learn... so yeah. I'm all for accuracy. and to make inferences about behavior & archetype with OTHER PEOPLES LIVES IN MIND, I believe you shouldn't just be spewing whatever... I mean if you want to talk about yourself, spew away... you are absolutely the expert... ;) but regarding other poeple, we should back up our shit with more than conjecture... even if it is conjecture from the eneagram special website.
      • on breaking the circle

        Wed, May 4, 2005 - 12:05 PM
        i would have to agree with the previous poster. biopsych and the enneagram. i hate to be less intellectual than i usually am but "hello, essentialist bullshit"

        due to the subjective nature of depression; due to the social institutions that exist and perpetuate low feelings of self worth; due to the the fact that depression is not an objective biological instability; due to the fact that the enneagram also provides insight on the different levels of health and therefor you cannot say that universally 2-3-4 have medium levels of norepinephrine.

        every depressed person on the planet is prescribed prozac because it is a psychopharmacological innovation. the amazing thing about the enneagram is that it takes into account social construction--i apologize for my less than objective reaction but your attempt to undermine that is highly unfortunate.
        • Re: on breaking the circle

          Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:30 PM
          I find it hard to believe that you a can sit there an accuse me of ignornace by basing my opinion on pseudo-science when EVERY SINGLE REBUTT you made is COMPLETELY ROOTED IN ASSUMPTION. "Due to the FACT that...and the FACT that...and this other FACT that I'm not willing to substantiate" I at least provided an article to try and articulate my "Essentialist Bullshit" opinion, and I never said it was a STUDY, I beleive I referenced it as an ARTICLE, since we're on the topic of semantic specificity. And while i respect (as a head type) your need for empiricism, i think you were missing my point.

          YES THERE ARE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF HEALTH

          I realize this, which is why the ARTICLE explained that if this were the case (Neurotransmitters corresponding to personality types) we would notice AS I STATED IN MY EXAMPLE WITH THE 1, that as they moved through the levels of health, and experience integration and disintegration, we see a change in chemical levels, and i recognize that society among other factors affect those levels, THANKS FOR AGREEING WITH MY POINT - THIS IS NO BULLSHIT PEOPLE DO YOU BELIEVE IN MODERN PSYCHOLOGY? IT'S CALLED "SEASONAL AFFECTIVE DISORDER" and it's one of many SCIENTIFIC EMPRICIAL PSYCHOLOGICAL "FACTS" that's floating around these things called "Universities", and has formed the basis for my "highly unfortunate" pseudo-science (although I do not place as much faith in "tangible fact" as you do, which you will read about later in this post). In fact I am in the process of writing a grant proposal to get funding to test the basis of that theory, i'm apparently THAT FUCKING IGNORANT.

          I believe at one point computer science, neuroscience, physics (Hawking and his colleagues are espousing the existance of "Light Holes" for christ sake!) among other fields of study were all labeled "Pseudo-Science", but i find living in a world of possibility far more rewarding than limiting my perspective to hard empiricism, which is kind of a logical phallacy in and of itself considering you can't even prove you exist (what does the word "prove" even mean; according to Saussure/Derrida all signs are relative, and "prove" is just a human categorical reference for something that doesnt actually exist (it's a simulacrum), you've just fallen victim to "Logic" of Western Empirical thought. But you see? That's the state of affairs when you lock yourself into thinking that because YOU can see it and touch it it's ABSOLUTE - it clearly fucking isn't because the fucking earth is round.

          At this point there is no point in having a discussion of ideas about the enneagram because we'd have to work our way back to the meaning or origin of life and contemplate/debate each "fact" that has ever been just to get to a point where we'd be able to agree on an understanding of what each of us "means" when we use a word or definition.

          And what about illicit drugs? No rebutt? There is no difference between adderall and tweak (That research I HAVE done), they are both comprised primarily of amphetamine salts, and therefore have the same affect on the body (the only SOCIAL difference between the two is that Adderall is considered (again a fucking social label whatever that means) to be primarily an instrumental drug, and tweak is considered primarily recreational. So if you beleive that psychopharmacological innovations like adderall and prozac have some kinda of "magic" property that makes them different than illicit drugs, and that somehow, even despite all that correlation, that your mood isn't effected by levels of neurotransmitters in your body which these drugs can affect, then i simply have nothing more to say on the matter, i guess you just can't reason with unreasonable people.

          So to conclude this irate rant, Descarte fucked up bad when he based his entire logical proof of the existance of god on an assumption by saying "I can conceive of 'perfection', therefore god must exist because he is perfect" Well that's what you're doing, taking everything that is socially/discursively accepted as "truth" with complete blind faith (ironically), and belting anyone else for trying to disagree with (or even hesitantly question) the dominant discourse of society.

          -Duardon

          P.S. - I disagree that depression isn't an objective biological instability, i mean shit you're trying to tell me that when you're depressed you are somehow stable or at least the same relatively stable that we prescribe to human "normality"? As a prolonged state, (and i emphasize prolonged here because I feel depression is a neccessary TEMPORARY state) how is depression advantagous to evolution?
          • whoa there cowboy that was completely unnecessary. in that i disagree with just about everything you apparently believe in as youre applying for some grant to validate your presumptions that is the reason why -this- conversation (the one with you) is ending. this reactive bullshit its not something i tend to roll with. your presentation of the infallible measures of truth has no footing to even involve itself (yourself) in the discourse of sociological theory. my unwillingness to "substantiate" my response with some article off of sociological abstracts is a reflection of my recognition of the triviality of internet discussion. i completely enjoy it dont get me wrong particularly surrounding the internet, just not with hotheaded intellectuals like yourself. but on the issue i found removed from the grand defense--how and why individuals experience depression is subjective, they may have the capacity to recite a list of symptoms but his depression is different than her depression which is different than my depression. im sure youll counter with something along the lines of discovery within the newest regime of truth and while i am interested in your response. the process is lacking.
            • I think your membership to enneagram tribe should be revoked for saying

              "my unwillingness to "substantiate" my response with some article off of sociological abstracts is a reflection of my recognition of the triviality of internet discussion"

              If you're saying that everyone here is too dumb for your own genius... i mean, i take it back.. you are only a 5

              Luke
              • time and dates and time

                Sat, May 7, 2005 - 3:21 AM
                hi luke. an internet discussion is a past time. something i allow myself between work class and life. i am unwilling to bring it to another level in part because im uninterested and in part because i dont have the time. it is trivial. im sorry if you feel otherwise.

                but i suppose for that stance, i should probably just be kicked off of the internet. the fact that you took what i said and milked out of it that im considering everyone who enjoys using their time and energy on theoretical discussion with faceless people "dumb" is your own limitation.

                its my resources that i value not my genius. but i am only a 5.
  • E
    E
    offline 3

    Re: How to Type Others...

    Fri, September 9, 2005 - 10:54 AM
    I will skip over the emotional current and reply to the original topic ... typing others.

    I have found it very useful (and reasonably possible) to type others. It allows me to better understand where they are coming from and how to better connect with them. The healthier they are the less work it is. But this has saved me untold hours of frustration over the last few years, which I remember experiencing before I used the Enneagram (and Sprial Dynamics).

    I don't know about the techniacal parts or all the references, but the system I use sounds like it is (or is based on some of) the same Duardon refers to. I use it because it works much of the time.

    In Riso's book The Wisdom of the Enneagram there is a quiz (p. 14) that I have used with great success. There are only two multiple choice questions - which I wish I could hold in my head better.

    Basically it triangulates (with two points?!?) the Demanding, Earning, and Withdrawing methods with the Positive Outlook, Emotional, Competance approaches. These are more experiential and easier to (self) identify. I also use the Attention, Security, and Atonomy basic goals. Any two of these thre groups will "triangulate" (I find it interesting that two will do it) a single type.

    For example:
    I am a Withdrawer (4,5,9) , as is easy to see when I am under stress or dealing with a problem. I also use Compentance (1,3,5) as my main currency in life, which anyone who knows me can tell you. And there you are ... I am a 5. I am also working for Security (5,6,7), which you can see from my concerns and questions. You could use this with either of the above groups and still get 5.

    I don't feel the need to debate the science of it because I just find it useful. I have confirmed my guesses with many people and have been right a lot (85-95%?) of the time.

    I can offer a 6 reassurance. I can get excited with a 7. I can praise a 3. I can encourage a 9. I find the common ground we share or connect with the part of them that I have ignored. This helps a lot when I am working with people.

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